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Smiths Arms – Brick by Brick – A Step Too Far

25 Apr

Beamish, The Living Museum of the North

Hello HistoryME

Colliery Inn, The

Thank you very much for this and for considering the museum in this matter. I am afraid that the North West is really outside our collecting area as a regional museum of the North East. We are actually considering rebuilding another pub, but already have the remains of the sadly demolished Colliery Inn from about three miles away in store here.

As you obviously appreciate, moving a building is very much a last option. I read recently that an open air museum in the Chilterns had apparently collected a mill from Cumbria, and the Welsh National Folk Museum at St Fagans obviously collect from all over Wales, but to move buildings this sort of distance is pretty exceptional, not only because it naturally massively increases the costs of staff and travelling time and accomodation, but because one is moving a structure completely out of any cultural setting. For me this pub is magnificent, but even for its date, it is subtly unlike similar buildings on Tyneside for example.

The costs of such a project are rather a ‘how long is a piece of string’ matter I am afraid the short answer being that this entirely depends on the quality of the job. It also depends hugely on whether it is being done by your own, experienced staff, or by contractors who may have been appointed on grounds of cost only. We have moved whole buildings or, at times, just the facades. We are currently in the last stages of rebuilding the medieval and later St Helens Church from Eston, Middlesborough, and I am confident that we will have well over 90% of all the external blocks in their original position and relationships. The internals however we could not afford to manage so closely, it was random rubble, so only the right stones have gone back into the right walls, as it were. This was due to time and money constraints at the time we rescued it 15 years ago.

The last building we collected was by contract, a bit of a risk for us but actually the firm proved to be careful and thoughtful beyond our expectations. Some museums, such as the Black Country at Dudley have always made a great effort to number every brick and replace them exactly. If I was doing a Roman building, I would do that too, but my own belief is that the more one knows and understands about the time and culture that produced the building, the more one can relax about this. For your pub, then obviously every shaped brick and all the ornamental brickwork, stone work and mullions should be recorded as a minimum. Beyond that it is a matter of ethics and preference as to how far the frontage is treated and recorded, following architectural drawings and regularised photography. Would you intend to move the whole building (I do not know to what level the interiors survive), including side and rear walls? The cellars? Another issue is whether you would reconstruct the building to ‘end of working life’, as William Morris might have preferred (as do I), or to ‘as built’?

The first question to ask is actually ‘will it come apart?’ As you will appreciate, modern cements were only coming in towards the end of the Victorian period, but lime mortars can vary wildly – they are by no means always the loose white lime of the 18th and early 19th centuries used in so many rural buildings. Our Church had some C 15th mud mortar which was surprisingly hard, 1822 white lime which was very poor indeed and a pinky coal fired lime from the C 17th which was some of the hardest stuff I have dealt with: if the stones had been smaller and softer, we could have had a real problem there. Across the North East we had, in the C 19th, a lot of black ‘pug lime’ mortar. Frighteningly hard if kept dry, but in a wet derelict building it soon de-natures. The best thing to do is to make several careful holes in the building before committing to practicality, timescale or cost.

Hetton Silver Band Hall shortly before being carefully taken down - 2012

There is no doubt that it is absolutely always cheaper to restore and repair in situ; moving is always the most expensive. The small brick Hetton Silver Band Hall building which we recently collected costed £47,000 before asbestos stripping to dismantle and transport to store. I would imagine your pub might cost four times that as an absolute minimum? For more pictures on the Hetton Silver Band Hall deconstruction please click LINK.

I hope these thoughts are of some help and I wish you the best for your project.

Jim Rees
Curator
Beamish Living Museum of the North

Pictures and further details regarding the Smiths Arms can be found at this LINK


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Smiths Arms – Brick by Brick

18 Apr

Brick by Brick

To HistoryME

Have you got some contact details I can have?

I have spoke with Mr Holland and Mr Walden regarding this matter. We would like to discuss your requirements and possibly make a site visit to view the Smiths Arm Pub.

Mr Walden has spent many years in the museum industry and is considered by many to be the best consultant with regards to historical building relocation in Europe.

Regards

Mr S Holland
Holland Contracting


							

Smiths Arms – Brick by Brick

14 Apr

To Steve Holland

I write a website called HistoryME about the social history of the people of Manchester and have been running a campaign backed by the local community and associations like the Victorian Society to try and save the oldest public house in the historic Ancoats area of Manchester and save it from the developers wrecking ball.

Unfortunately English Heritage who acknowledged the importance of the building, refused an application for listing, although we will be taking it to the Secretary of State, to try and over turn it.

However, I saw a program on BBC the other day called Brick by Brick: Rebuilding Our Past, presented by historian Dan Cruickshank and architect Charlie Luxton where they basically take down, move and rebuild historic Victorian buildings.

This program led me to think about looking at the  possibility of moving and rebuilding the historic Smiths Arms Public House. This has been done before in Manchester with two public houses: Sam Smiths owned Sinclairs Oyster Bar and the Nicholason’s owned Old Wellington, both of which have been moved twice before.

Hall St, Dudley and rebuilt at the Black Country Living Museum, Dudley in 2009. Courtesy of Holland Contracting.

So it is to this respect that I have contacted you and having found your fantastic website, in particular your page entitled Brick by Brick Historical Building Relocation in which you took a building on Hall Street, Dudley and rebuilt it at Black Country Living Museum. Could this be done to the Smiths Arms I wondered, obviously if planning, funds were available.

I fully appreciate you cannot give a full estimate on the information I have given to you, but it would be amazingly helpful if you could give myself and the group of campaigners a rough idea of the costs involved and if you could a ball park figure how much the building would be to take down and rebuilt. It’s just so I can put forward this proposal as a possibility at the next campaign meeting.

Pictures and further details regarding the Smiths Arms can be found at this
LINK

Your sincerely

HistoryME

Smiths Arms – Writing Is On The Wall – A Bitter Farewell

19 Dec

The Smiths Arms Public House, 2007.


HistoryME
Our Ref: 469625
Direct Line: 01482 228452

EMail: rosie.brady@english-heritage.org.uk
19 December 2011

Dear HistoryME,

The Smiths Arms Public House, 37 Sherratt Street, Manchester

Notification of designation decision regarding The Smiths Arms Public House, The Smiths Arms, 37  Sherratt Street, City CENTRAL

Following your application we have been considering adding the above building to the List of Buildings of Special Architectural or Historic Interest.

We have taken into account all the representations made and completed our assessment of the building. Having considered our recommendation the Minister with responsibility in this matter, the Minister for Tourism and Heritage, has decided not to add The Smiths Arms Public House to the List of Buildings of Special Architectural or Historic Interest.

I attach a copy of our Smiths Arms Notification Report, prepared for the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, which gives the principal reasons for this decision.

If you consider that this decision has been wrongly made you may contact the DCMS within 28 days of the date of this letter to request that the Secretary of State review the decision. An example of a decision made wrongly wouldbe where there was a factual error or an irregularity in the process which affected the outcome. You may also ask the Secretary of State to review the decision if you have any significant evidence relating to the special architectural or historic interest of the building which was not previously considered. Further details of the review criteria and process and how to request a review are contained in the annex to this letter.

Please click on link for map of The Smiths Arms Public House Street Map.

If you have any questions in the meantime please do not hesitate to contact me, quoting our reference 469625. Further guidance on how to respond to this consultation and the type of information we are interested in can be found on our website at www.english-heritage.org.uk.

Yours sincerely

Rosie Brady

Designation Co-ordinator- North
English Heritage
37 Tanner Row
York
YO1 6WP

Data Protection Act 1998

Your personal details, along with the other information you have provided and information obtained from other sources, will be retained by English Heritage for administrative purposes and, where applicable, for future consideration. English Heritage will not release personal details to a third party if the disclosure would contravene the Data Protection principles.

Freedom of Information

English Heritage is subject to the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and the Environmental Information Regulations 2004 which provide a general right of access to information we hold. We may provide the information you have supplied in response to a request made under this legislation, subject to any exemptions which apply. English Heritage will consult with external parties as necessary prior to releasing information.

Annex 1

Review Criteria and Process

A review will only be carried out in the following circumstances:

(1) there is evidence that the original decision has been made wrongly. Examples would include:

– where there was a factual error, eg. the wrong building was listed; or

– where there has been some irregularity in the process which has affected the outcome, eg. relevant
considerations were not taken into account or irrelevant considerations were taken into account.

(2) there is significant evidence which was not previously considered, relating to the
special architectural or historic interest of the building, as set out in the Planning (Listed Buildings
and Conservation Areas) Act 1990. An example would be where new evidence relating to the date of a
building has been discovered which might make a material difference to the architectural or historic
interest of the building.

Having conducted a review, the Secretary of State will either affirm or overturn the original decision. It is important to understand that the original decision will stand until the Secretary of State has made a decision on whether the original decision should be affirmed or overturned. If the original decision is overturned, this will not have retrospective effect.

How to request a review of a listing decision

Reviews are carried out by the Department of Culture, Media and Sport and review requests should be made on the Department’s ‘Listing Review Request Form’. The Form is accompanied by Guidance to assist you in making a review request.  Both the Form and the Guidance can be downloaded from the ‘Reviews of Listing Decisions’ page of the Department for Culture, Media and Sport’s website at:

www.culture.gov.uk/what_we_do/historic_environment/6294.aspx

If you are unable to access the website please contact:

The Listing Review Officer
Heritage Protection Branch
Culture Team
Department for Culture Media and Sport
2-4 Cockspur Street
London
SW1Y 5DH.

Review requests should normally be made within 28 days of the date of this letter.
Requests made beyond this period may be considered in exceptional circumstances.

This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of English Heritage unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system and notify the sender immediately. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it. Any information sent to English Heritage may become publicly available.

Portico: your gateway to information on sites in the National Heritage Collection; have a look and tell us what you think. http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/professional/archives-and-collections/portico

If you liked this post you may like this one: Hat and Feathers Public House – 39 Mason St – Ancoats – Manchester – M4 5FX

Smiths Arms – Invitation to Comment from English Heritage

6 Dec


HistoryME

Direct Line: 01482 228452
EMail: annika.nickson@english-heritage.org.uk

06 December 2011

Dear HistoryME,

The Smiths Arms Public House, 37 Sherratt Street, Manchester

INVITATION TO COMMENT

Further to our previous correspondence, I am writing to advise you that we have completed our initial assessment of the above building to consider whether it has special architectural or historic interest.

I attach a copy of our The Smiths Arms Public House – Consultation Report, which sets out the factual information upon which we will base our recommendation to the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport.

If you have any further information or observations on the consultation report which you believe might be relevant to our assessment we would be pleased to hear from you. You can send these to us by email or by post within 7 days from the date of this email. If you do not intend to send us any further comments we would be grateful if you could let us know so that we can proceed with the case. We will consider all representations made before finalising our assessment and making our decision. We will notify you of the Secretary of State’s recommendation in due course.

Please click on link for map of The Smiths Arms Public House Street Map.

If you have any questions in the meantime please do not hesitate to contact me, quoting our reference 469625. Further guidance on how to respond to this consultation and the type of information we are interested in can be found on our website at www.english-heritage.org.uk.

Yours sincerely

Annika Nickson

Assistant Designation Adviser – North
English Heritage
37 Tanner Row
York
YO1 6WP

Data Protection Act 1998

Your personal details, along with the other information you have provided and information obtained from other sources, will be retained by English Heritage for administrative purposes and, where applicable, for future consideration. English Heritage will not release personal details to a third party if the disclosure would contravene the Data Protection principles.

Freedom of Information

English Heritage is subject to the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and the Environmental Information Regulations 2004 which provide a general right of access to information we hold. We may provide the information you have supplied in response to a request made under this legislation, subject to any exemptions which apply. English Heritage will consult with external parties as necessary prior to releasing information.

This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of English Heritage unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system and notify the sender immediately. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it. Any information sent to English Heritage may become publicly available.

Portico: your gateway to information on sites in the National Heritage Collection; have a look and tell us what you think. http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/professional/archives-and-collections/portico

The Smiths Arms Public House – English Heritage – Receipt of Designation Application

1 Nov


FAO HistoryME

Our Ref: 469625

Direct Line: 01482 228452

EMail: annika.nickson@english-heritage.org.uk

01 November 2011

Dear Sir,

The Smiths Arms, 37 Sherratt Street, Ancoats, Manchester

Thank you for your application to add the above building to the List of Buildings of Special Architectural or Historic Interest. If you have the contact details for the owner(s) of the building and have not already provided us with them, I would be grateful if you could contact me.

We are now beginning our assessment of the building. Once we have carried out this preliminary assessment we will send you a copy of our consultation report. This report will set out the factual information on which we will base our recommendation. At that stage you will be invited to make any comments you wish to about the building. We will consider all representations made before finalising our assessment and making our recommendation to the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport. We will notify you of the Secretary of State’s decision in due course.

In the meantime if you have any questions please do not hesitate to contact our Designation Coordinator Rosie Brady on 01904 601951, quoting our reference 469625. Further information can also be found on our website at www.english-heritage.org.uk.

Yours sincerely

Annika Nickson

Assistant Designation Adviser – North

English Heritage

37 Tanner Row

York

YO1 6WP

Data Protection Act 1998

Your personal details, along with the other information you have provided and information obtained from other sources, will be retained by English Heritage for administrative purposes and, where applicable, for future consideration. English Heritage will not release personal details to a third party if the disclosure would contravene the Data Protection principles.

Freedom of Information

English Heritage is subject to the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and the Environmental Information Regulations 2004 which provide a general right of access to information we hold. We may provide the information you have supplied in response to a request made under this legislation, subject to any exemptions which apply. English Heritage will consult with external parties as necessary prior to releasing information.

This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of English Heritage unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system and notify the sender immediately. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it. Any information sent to English Heritage may become publicly available.

Portico: your gateway to information on sites in the National Heritage Collection; have a look and tell us what you think.http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/professional/archives-and-collections/portico

Archaeological Survey for the Smiths Arms Public House – 37 Sherratt St – Ancoats – Manchester – M4

22 Oct


Please click link below:
Smiths Arms Archaeological Survey – July 2007

This the archaeological survey untaken by Manchester University in July 2007 for the historic and soon to be demolished The Smith Arms Public House in Ancoats, which sadly since 2005 has been waiting its fate, which sadly is nearing ever closer. Yet another historic building lost forever in an area that in 1999 applied for Unesco World Heritage Site status, submitted by the Department For Culture, Media and Sport Buildings, Monuments and Sites.

If you would like to add any further information, memories, pictures or stories regarding this post, HistoryME would love to hear from you.

Please contact us by using the form below:

The Admiral – Butler St – Ancoats – Manchester – M4 6JY

29 Aug

The Admiral Pub – Butler Street in 2008 – before demolition.

The Admiral Public House on Butler Street in Ancoats closed its doors in 2008 for the final time and it was only a matter of time, with Ancoats now in the grip of yet another wave of demolition, that this pub would meet the same fate. And so in 2010, the Admiral Public House was finally demolished having served the community since the 1970s.

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If you would like to add any further information, memories, pictures or stories regarding the post, HistoryME would love to hear from you.

Please contact us by using the form below:

The Nelson Public House – Radium St (late German St)/ Oldham Rd – Ancoats

22 Aug

Back to its original name, The Nelson in 1970.

The Nelson public house sadly didn’t quite reach its 200th anniversary and in 2010 became yet another public house on the long list of casualties in the Ancoats area. The Nelson had been boarded up for many years behind blackened boarding and few would have noticed or cared what architectural history lurked behind it and so it was almost anonymously demolished in 2010.

The Nelson, in its various guises, stood on the corner of Oldham Road and Radium/German Street. It started out as the Nelson of the Nile in 1815, the Death of Nelson (1830/40s), then the Lord Nelson, the Nelson Vaults, and finally the Nelson until its closure in 1985 [1].

Admiral Horatio Lord Nelson by English portrait painter Lemuel Francis Abbott in 1800

The Nelson was built in 1815, the year which would finally see the last days of Napoleonic Wars (1803–1815) and the end to Napoleon Bonapartes tyranny at the hands the Anglo-Allied army led by the Duke of Wellington and Gebhard Leberecht von Blücher. However, the Nelson stood to honour yet another of England’s great heroic soldiers, Vice Admiral Horatio Lord Nelson and his decisive battle to defeat the combined naval forces of the French and Spanish at Battle of Trafalgar in 1805.

Many pubs after Nelsons victory, in which he himself succumb to horrific injuries, were renamed to honour him. It is not known if an early pub of a different name existed before the Nelson in Ancoats. The Nelson was owned by McKenna’s Brewery in the late 19th century and in 1959 it was called the Nelson Vaults and was a Wilson’s house.

The Battle of Trafalgar by J. M. W. Turner 1806 to 1808

As with most pub still open or demolished, there is often very few records to show the interior and as with everything, interiors of pubs are rarely left historically intact. I’m sure the Nelson would have seen some cosmetic alterations as most public houses in the Ancoats and Manchester in general have little protection to stop them, irrespective of the wider social historical context they exist in.

From The Old Pubs of Ancoats:

The “Death of Nelson” was a popular patriotic ballad and the singing of such a song as the cause of a murder in the Nelson in 1830.

A dresser called Marshall, who worked in a Jersey Street cotton mill, was singing to a full taproom when three customers took offence at the anti-Catholic sentiments. Marshall was knocked down and a man called Trayner jumped on him and killed him [1].

Having started out as the Nelson, it was to have a name change in the 1950s, to the Nelson Vaults. One wonders if this was a reference to the historical interior that may have greeted those entering it’s doors. We can only wonder, but we get a brief glimpse of the possibility that this may have been the case as post demolition, remains of the glazed interior tiles can still be seen.

[1]. The Old Pubs of Ancoats, Neil Richardson (1987).

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If you would like to add any further information, memories, pictures or stories regarding the post, HistoryME would love to hear from you.

Please contact us by using the form below:

Gangster’s Paradise Lost

17 Aug

Hat and Feathers Public House, 39 Mason Street, Ancoats (M4 5FX) before demolition. Courtesy P. Stanley.

After standing for over century, the Hat and Feathers was demolished on 18th July 2009 and replaced by a car park. The same fate that has saw off many of Manchester’s greatest architectural treasure, such as the modernist masterpiece York House , which regrettably was demolished in 1974.

After demolition the rather ghostly shadow hangs over the car park run by SIP Car Parks Ltd. © 2012 historyme.

The Hat and Feathers  was a rare example of a Victorian possibly Georgian corner back street public house in the area of Ancoats; with it’s traditional layout and fine exterior tiling dating from at least 1841 when it was run by publican John Jackson (Pigot & Slater 1841); listed as the Hat and Feather at number 13 Mason Street. John Jackson stayed there for no more than nine years and by 1850 Thos. Doyle (Slater 1850) had taken over.

Mason Street at this time would have been a hive of activity and very much what would many would recognise as a traditional high street today. Strewn with small busy local shops and cobbles underfoot. Meanwhile, Manchester had gone global and had become the first and greatest industrial city in the world.

The Hat and Feathers before demolition from Mason Street. Courtesy P. Stanley.

Mason Street in 1850 included a bakers (No 1, Thomas Swift), a potato dealer (No 7, John Sheridan), a hairdressers (No 15, Samuel Roper), a wholesale grocers (No 6, Stephen Sheldon & John Joule) along with two more grocers shops (No 46, James Ellison), (No 52, Sarah Roberts). There were also three more public houses along Mason Street: Red Bull Tavern (No 45, landlord Eliza Campbell), Peel’s Arms Inn (No 12 , landlord Ralph Bailey), Markland’s Arms (No 50, landlord William Rose). There was also a patent saw mill run by Thomas Taylor (No 5); John Evans a mattress maker (No 17); leather seller Joseph Hardy (No 14), warp sizers John Bardsley and Co (No 20); timber merchants John and Edmund Watson Cryer (No 20);

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